welcome to another episode of V for veganism I am here with Joshua Katcher
he is the owner and founder of the ethical fashion brand brave gentleman
and he's also a guest lecturer at various design schools around the world
thank you so much Joshua for doing this with us and talking with us my pleasure
thank you so before we get into all of this amazing beautiful stuff around us I
have to ask you how did you discover veganism when did you become vegan and
what kind of triggers that I discovered veganism when I was a teenager I
actually remember being in camp and having a camp counselor who was vegan
and thinking how crazy that sounded I think I must have been about 12 when I
first you know heard the term and I just thought it was kind of weird I was like
I was what he does eat salads and you know it's funny because now people ask
me that question yeah later on in life like a few years later
when I was about 15 I decided to go vegetarian after learning about what was
happening to the rainforests for cattle grazing okay so during high school there
was a lot of concern in in the 1990s for the rainforests everything was about
rainforest conservation so I was in an after-school Club we learned about
cattle grazing and I thought that that was crazy it was the first time I'd ever
really questioned where my food was coming from just this idea that I mean
living in New York and there is meat being
made somewhere like far away in the rainforest I just thought that like who
why and that question led me down a path that resulted ultimately and my going
vegan and animal ethics quickly became the central concern for me
environmental concern is you know very important but my high school library had
Peter singers Animal Liberation and it luckily so I stumbled across it and took
it out and read it and it that you know from then on I was I was changed I mean
I think you're so lucky to have discovered it so early on I don't think
I questioned what I was eating until I got out of high school and was like in
college and and even then didn't really question it too much I was handed like a
pencil about vegetarianism and as an actor I was looking for like ways to be
healthy aka skinny okay vegetarianism and I was
like yeah I'll do that whatever so that's your vegan story but
how did you know that fashion was your calling fashion is not something I ever
imagined doing okay it's really funny that you know if I were to tell my my
teenage self that I would have a fashion brand one day I probably would have
laughed I was somebody who always saw fashion as something silly and frivolous
and about vanity and somehow not not intellectual not cerebral and I wrote it
off which is something that a lot of the activism
community does they tend to see anything that has to do with aesthetics as being
as being silly or inconsequential so learning about fashion and seeing its
influence on identity on environment on animals on people and working people
this is a global industry with huge impacts and the fact that it is an
aesthetic industry is it's an interesting combination because it makes
it very easy for people to not want to think about it and not have to think
about it and meanwhile behind the scenes behind all these sleek marketing
campaigns and fashion shows there is this global industrial complex that
requires the bodies of billions of animals and an ecosystems everywhere and
slave labor it's it's an industry that needs meaningful legislation passed
around it and needs better innovation and better leaders so I got into fashion
as an activist to change the fashion industry hi
so did you go to school for fashion I went to school for art so you know
they're they're neighbouring they're not exact yeah so I have an idea of design
and an idea of aesthetics in art history and it definitely made me a better
fashion designer but no I didn't study fashion per se interesting I started
writing about it in 2008 when I started my blog the discerning brood at the time
it was the first men's lifestyle vegan blog there wasn't very much content out
there for vegan men so I decided to make something that spoke to more of the
mainstream man I looked at things like GQ and Esquire and I said how can I take
a format like this and apply it to an ethical lifestyle and the the
discerning group was born from writing that doing research looking for things
that I wanted that didn't exist I was said oh there's a big older market
there's things that I would love to have just a really nice well-made pair of
shoes that don't look like they're for hippies or you know that are durable
that are made with craftsmanship and quality that aren't you know gonna fall
apart in two weeks and so I went on this journey of trying to make something and
and one thing led to the other and here we are you know filling that hole is so
important because that is the narrative that is out there right now is that
vegan products fall apart very quickly anytime somebody says oh this is gonna
fall apart there's a few things happening one is that they are
responding to very effective marketing from the leather industry the leather
industry has spent a lot of money to own words like authentic real genuine these
are not words that are essentially attached to leather these are words that
have been marketed with leather so there is this programming that we need to
associate leather with durability and quality and the idea that there aren't
man-made materials that are more durable that are superior to leather it's it's
kind of silly there are materials we use here they outperform leather and I don't
like using words like faux and fake because I think it really deep values
what that thing is I use terms like future leather a superior leather and
maybe those terms aren't perfect but I'm always looking for ways to talk to
people especially people who come into the store who aren't vegan to talk to
them about what this material is and why it's better
they're using the future in front of these aerials is that you or is that
like an industry thing that's not out there I started I started referring to
future Wolf's future silk future leather because I didn't want to say fake it's
not fake we open here yeah I believe yeah and who wants to wear something
that's fake right what does it say a fashion is about identity and you're
wearing something that's fake it means what does it mean you're a fake person
that you're a phony that you're pretending to be something that you're
not I think that it has a really damaging impact on the perception of
ethical fashion in general and I think the same thing about food I hate saying
like Oh fake meat or fake cheese no these are these are real foods they're
not like toys right yes I'm not eating plastic yes
actually real yeah it's so important to have a more evolved and a continually
evolving way of speaking about these things and I think people put a lot of
emphasis on the ethical correctness which is fine rather than the marketing
and it needs to be both yeah you can be right and you can be correct but that
isn't necessarily going to overcome the perceived correctness of aesthetics or
the perceived correct mix correctness of marketing I I didn't know that people
said this but I read this on your website that people say you know why is
your stuff so expensive yeah um personally for a boutique shop I feel
that the numbers are on par with other boutique shops in New York City like hey
we're in New York City if you go to any other fashion boutique in New York these
are gonna be the prices that you're going to pay but you have a reason for
that absolutely and look fashion is not a right
no one is obligated to buy my stuff right however an ethical fashion system
cannot be cheap right just paying someone fairly for their labor is going
to result in a higher price point at retail I actually get that question a
lot why is ethical fashion expensive and
usually my response is to turn the question around not why is this so
expensive but why is there fashion that's so cheap right what does that say
about the fashion system how is it possible that there's a jacket that
costs $30 and when you break that $30 down and you and you go back into that
value chain and say okay this $30 means in order for a REIT for a retail
location to make money on it they had to buy it at wholesale at about half of
that so they bought it maybe at $15 and then in order to make money the designer
had to sell it for $15 so then that $15 has to be broken up between materials
findings like buttons and zippers labor shipping every cost that you can think
of to move parts around to put things together all has to be shared in that
original cost of production so if something's cheap that means somebody's
getting screwed over and it means that materials are probably cheap and toxic
and it's not a sustainable or ethical way of doing things now I agree
ethical fashion is expensive and not everyone can afford it and that's a
problem and it's a larger problem I think it's a systemic problem the first
thing is that no one has a right to buy anything that has to do with you know a
low very good so I'm not obligated to figure out a way to make this cheaper I
would love for it to be cheaper and as more and more systems change to become
more ethical the prices will come down but they're never going to you're never
going to have a $10 shirt that is made f Utley right unless
it's made in such enormous volumes that you know every you know everyone in
America could have one yeah so it's it's a problem and it's something that I
think will be solved down the road and for now what I often tell people is
you're not just a consumer that's a passive term consuming is sitting back
and taking things in you are a citizen investor your dollars that you spend
it's an investment in the system that that's whatever however that thing was
made so if you want to invest in a system that should flourish then you
should save up a little bit and find one brand that you really like what they're
doing and buy one thing from them because for a small brand one purchase
makes a difference if somebody buys one belt from me one pair of shoes that
actually matters that makes a difference do the rest of your shopping at
secondhand stores or thrift stores and you end up spending about same amount of
money because that that thing that you spent more on that you saved up for and
got that one thing it's gonna last a long time
it's made with better quality materials and it's there are ways to support
ethical and sustainable businesses without feeling like you have to buy
everything from them or have your entire wardrobe because that's not possible who
can do that I can't do that there's stuff in my own collection that I can't
afford but there are people who can and we should be we should be using those
resources to fund new ways of making things it's the same in the food
industry look how much the first lab-grown burger
cost to me like millions and millions of dollars so it's an investment and it's
worth it because even though the prices are higher and a lot of working people
can't afford those prices there are working people who make these things who
need to make a living wage so there's an entire other side to fashion that is not
seen and it's just as valid as what is soon yeah well and also not just a
living wage but like ethically sourced you know your dies are free of chemicals
and obviously the chemical guys tend to be the cheaper ones so yeah a lot of
what we use is as innovative as possible it's not perfect there's no I mean if
anybody tries to be perfect there you're just gonna be paralyzed so we try to do
as best we can with what's out there and with our resources so speaking of people
who can afford your product there are some very high-profile people that have
endorsed rape gentleman such as Joaquin Phoenix and Alan Cumming how did that
come about did they contact you did you reach out to them well with Alan's
people they reached out to us Alan is vegan and very fashionable and he's
really big right now he has you know a new show and he's always at new films
he's award-winning he just did the whole press week wearing all brave denim and
stuff on the late night shows and oh wow you actually rang the closing bell at
the New York Stock Exchange wearing brave done oh man he's been he's become
like an ambassador for brave gentlemen yeah and then with Joaquin that happened
through PETA PETA put us in contact we did a campaign together about wool and
they used the clothing on him to do this big billboard that was about the cruelty
of the wool industry and they featured him in
suits and that was in New York City during Fashion Week a big billboard it
was in a few other cities too so it's been it's been really great to be a
proof of concept that you can have a cruelty-free fashion brand and still
make nice stuff yeah so having being able to prove that means that there's no
need to use any of these things there's no need to have to breed and raise and
confine or trap and kill all of these animals to to get their body parts to
turn into materials it's there is nothing about that other than tradition
that makes it something to seek out let's talk about some of these amazing
products that you have here yeah well I thought with the outfit that you're
wearing which is like very cool you've got your combat boots and the you know
the floral on black which I thought I'm a motorcycle jacket would look good with
that outfit well so this is one of our signature pieces we we make these moto
jackets it's pretty much every season and this one is made from organic cotton
moleskin which is not it's not actually made from moles it's just called that
because it's it's like very fuzzy it feels it feels kind of like velvet but
it's made from organic cotton yeah even the zippers on this are made with solar
power and a facility in the United States the lining is all made from
recycled polyester so this is a pretty sustainable ethical jacket it's made
here in New York City I go to the factory I know I know the people who are
sewing this so here when I introduce yeah
consider that the motorcycle jacket has traditionally defined the rebel right
the badass so what do you think is more badass using a leather motorcycle jacket
that comes from one of the most mainstream and common hugely problematic
industries as like as that badass no this is much more an authentic symbol of
a rebel we are pushing back against the mainstream way of doing things we are
challenging systems we're challenging power and wearing one of our motorcycle
jackets is a real incarnation of that rebellious nough sits not just a
meaningless symbol so I can't afford the second right now but I think I might
have to save up and come back and get this because I really love it looks
great on you thank you I love it so this is one of our classic carry owls and
this is made here in Brooklyn when the material we're using is a high-tech EU
eco label certified material from Italy and EU eco label is a pretty stringent
environmental certification from the European Union so this material is made
in Italy and it is lighter weight than leather feel how light this is
oh my gosh yeah if this were made out of an animal skin you'd be like well really
a heavy bag this is super lightweight it's more durable than leather more
weather resistant and it breaks in it gets supple over time I use this just as
a carry-all a weekender bag I just throw everything in there it's kind of like
the Mary Poppins bag where you can you know pull a lamp out of it yeah but you
know it's unisex it's got its got a masculine kind of design to it but it
really could be for anyone yeah all of our stuff really is for anyone
I agree this is from our signature collection Footwear which is our
high-end footwear typically our shoes retail around 300 and these are all made
by hand and they're made with a blake rapid welt and they're made with all
hand detailed soles hand patina'd with steel toe and heel steps for longevity
and this tree retails at 640 in the luxury shoe realm that's actually not
that much no but to most people that sounds kind of crazy six hundred and
forty dollars for a pair of shoes but this is something that you can repair
this is something that's going to last a long time it's made with a lot of care
and quality and we use the same material that we talked about on the bag this is
a high-tech Italian material that is lighter weight more durable and more
weather resistant than leather and you end up with this beautiful luxury shoe
that you don't often see in the vegan realm yeah so this is the other one same
same idea it's just a different style this is what you call a single cut so it
makes a very sleek and seamless shape there's very little detail and I really
like minimal design I don't like anything overly decorated I don't like
stitching where it doesn't need to be our logos anything like that this kind
of shoe is just classic this is something that will never go out of
style it is just your standard sleek black dress shoe actually you know there
was a vegan fashion movement in the early 1900's in London really in the
book that I just wrote fashion animals I I found some advertisements that no one
else has seen probably since then so there are all these old advertisements
from London from the early 1900's but there were faux furs and faux leather
and these developments in fashion with specifically the goal of replacing cruel
animal products so you think that vegan fashion is this new contemporary concept
but it's really been happening for a hundred years right well and there are
also philosophers that we quote constantly we're always talking about
the cruelty of animals since you know the time of Plato yeah and you know so
this is obviously something that's been plaguing humanity for centuries
so yeah the idea that it's like new and innovative is almost laughable but I
think you know social media and the advent of the internet and allowing us
to spread information very quickly a lot of people who you know maybe didn't have
access to Plato's writing you know didn't know the people we're talking
about you know animal and animal cruelty there are histories that will never be
uncovered and there are histories that exist that we that led up to this
contemporary animal rights movement so even vogue participated in Vogue
magazine from 1900 to 1910 there was a column called concerning animals and it
was written by the founder of Vogue the woman who named the vote with Josephine
reading she was the original editor and her column was all about animal ethics
and they wrote about anything that you would consider a contemporary animal
rights issue they were talking about it in 1905 everything from horse carriage
cruelty to dogfighting to the fur industry to the feather industry to meat
and its relationship of cancer they were already discussing that in vogue imagine
what would have happened if that column didn't get extinguished yeah I mean
phobe would be one of the leading voices in the animal protection movement and I
think you know it's just it just shows how powerful some industries and
lobbying can be the fact that we have been talking about this for a really
long time but there are still it was advertisers who yeah who probably were
the reason that Colin got nixed yeah cuz when Conde Nast took over the
publication they prioritized advertisers interests first not editorial interests
yeah so you can see how an advertisement for feather hats next to a column
criticizing the cruelty of the feather hat industry
yeah that was a problem right well thank you so much for talking with us thank
you for having us here your stuff is absolutely gorgeous it's so well made it
feels great I love the feel of this coat I'm absolutely gonna come back and get
one for myself guys please come check out brave gentlemen I can take the El
train to Graham Avenue it's very very easy to get here come you know see
what's here and you know spend your money where you believe it should be and
that's how we're gonna you know win this fight and how we're going to fight back
against these industries we have something for everyone from as as
affordable as $40 for a wallet to as extravagant you know as you can think
yeah but there's something for everyone and what we're doing is trying to make
fashion industry better and this is just one one step on that journey yeah and if
you know if you can't afford it just follow brave gentlemen on social media
buy my book buy the book you know make sure to promote the line and thank you
again John thanks so much this is awesome
we really appreciate it make sure to subscribe below for all our other
content and we'll see you on the next one
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