WHILE THE LEADERSHIP OF NORTH AND SOUTH KOREA ARE POTENTIALLY
MOVING TOWARDS PEACE, OR AT LEAST GETTING A LITTLE CLOSER,
THE FAMILY OF OTTO WARMBIER IS ALSO MOVING CLOSER TO SOMETHING
CAN THAT'S THEIR LAWSUIT AGAINST NORTH KOREA --
IF YOU DON'T RECALL THIS STORY --
I WOULD DESCRIBE THAT AS TOO MUCH.
THAT SEEMS A LITTLE OUT OF
CONTROL.
AND IT WENT IN AN EVEN DARKER DIRECTION --
HE WAS EFFECTIVELY ON THE BRINK OF DEATH WHEN THEY
FINALLY RETURNED HIM, AND HE DIED SHORTLY THEREAFTER,
NOW THEY ARE SUING.
IT WAS HORRIFIC.
BLIND, DEAF, I THINK I SAW SOMETHING THAT HIS
PARENTS WERE SEEING HIS TEETH LOOK LIKE THEY HAD BEEN PULLED
OUT AND REARRANGED.
CLEARLY TORTURED.
I KNOW SOME PEOPLE WHO SPENT SOME TIME IN NORTH KOREA AS
CAPTIVES, AND IT'S NOT PRETTY.
WE KNOW THIS GOING INTO IT, WHICH IS WHAT IS SO UPSETTING.
BUT I WAS OBSESSED WITH THIS STORY WHEN IT ALL STARTED
HAPPENING, SO I STARTED DOING RESEARCH INTO THE TOUR GROUP HE
WENT WITH, AND JUST WHY ANYONE WOULD, AND ALL OF THE DRINKING
INVOLVED, AND THIS AND THAT, NONE OF IT MAKES IT OKAY, IT'S
JUST IT WASN'T SURPRISING UNFORTUNATELY THAT THIS IS
HOW IT ENDED.
I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY THOSE THINGS ARE GOING ON, AT LEAST AT
THIS POINT, MAYBE WE ARE MOVING TOWARD A PLACE WHERE WE CAN
DO THAT SORT OF THING.
I KNOW A GUY WHO IS A PHOTOGRAPHER WHO HAS BEEN IN A
GROUP WHERE THEY ARE LIKE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO PHOTOGRAPH NORTH
KOREA?
AND FREQUENTLY WHEN THEY RECOUNT THEIR STORIES THEY ARE
OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO TOE THE LINE BETWEEN REPORTING ACCURATELY ON
WHAT HAPPENED, BUT ALSO TRYING TO GET INVITED BACK AGAIN.
SO
THAT'S THE DIFFICULT LINE TO WALK.
THERE'S A GREAT BOOK, I
WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS, IT'S CALLED THE ORPHANMASTER'S SON,
IT'S WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO WENT ON ONE OF THOSE DELEGATIONS, AND
ITS FICTION LIES IS IT IN LINE WITH HOW WEIRD AND FICTITIOUS
THE EXPERIENCE IN NORTH KOREA ACTUALLY FEELS, IT CRAFTS A
COMPELLING NARRATIVE TO COMMUNICATE IF NOT THE EXACT
THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING THERE, BUT THE TRUTHS, AND THEY DRAW ON
REAL THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN NORTH KOREA.
LIKE KIM JONG-IL
SAYING I LIKE THAT JAPANESE OPERA STAR, KIDNAP HER AND BRING
HER BACK.
AND THAT HAPPENS, THERE ARE KIDNAPPINGS ALL THE
TIME.
PEOPLE SNEAKING INTO SOUTH KOREA, KIDNAPPINGS, SMUGGLING
THINGS BACK, A LOT OF THE ECONOMY IS BASED ON COUNTERFEIT
AND GRAFT, IT'S WEIRD.
I HAVE TO READ THIS BOOK NOW.
IT'S AMAZING.
BUT THIS STORY IS ONE OF, WHAT ARE WE SAYING TO
THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH IT, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS
WITH ME THIS MORNING, WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND THAT WE ARE
ESSENTIALLY LOOKING FOR PEACE, WHAT DO WE SAY TO THESE PEOPLE
WHO ARE AMERICANS WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THESE TERRIBLE
EXPERIENCES, AND TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE WORST
DURING THIS?
WHAT ABOUT THE THREE WHO ARE STILL THERE?
ARE WE APPEASING THEM?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOTED YOU DON'T MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR
FRIENDS, YOU ONLY MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR ENEMIES, THAT THE ONLY
PERSON YOU CAN, AND IN EVERY CONFLICT THERE WILL BE TERRIBLE
STUFF.
AND IN SOME CASES, THEY HAVE SET UP TRUTH AND
RECONCILIATION COMMITTEES AND THINGS LIKE THAT BUT NOT GONE
FORWARD ON PROSECUTING CLEAR WAR CRIMES AND THINGS OF THAT SORT.
IT COULD BE THAT THAT IS NECESSARY TO GET NORTH KOREA TO
JOIN THE REST OF US RIGHT NOW, BUT I WILL SAY THIS: I WANT
PEACE THERE, BUT PEACE IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
PEACE ISN'T EVEN THE ABSENCE OF ARTILLERY AIMED AT SEOUL.
PEACE
IS THE PEOPLE OF NORTH KOREA NOT BEING BRUTALIZED AND ENSLAVED
AND TORTURED AND MURDERED.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT CAN HAPPEN
NOW OR IF IT HAS TO HAPPEN OVER THE COURSE OF DECADES, BUT I
KNOW THAT IF WHAT COMES OUT OF THIS IS THEY ACTUALLY DO
DENUCLEARIZE AND PULL SOME OF THEIR FORCES AWAY FROM THE
BORDER THAT WOULD BE GREAT BUT IF THAT ALLOWS KIM JONG-UN AND
HIS SONS OR WHATEVER TO RULE FOR ANOTHER 100 YEARS AND THE PEOPLE
OF NORTH KOREA ARE IN THE SAME STATE AS THEY ARE NOW, HOW IS
THAT PEACE IN ANY MEETING OF THE WORD?
THAT IS WHAT IS ANGERING PEOPLE WHEN THEY SEE HIM SMILING
AND BEING CHEERED ON, THEY ARE HOLDING HANDS AND CROSSING THE
BORDER, AND HIS SISTER IS BEING CELEBRATED AT THE OLYMPICS, AND
SHE IS OUR NEW SHADE QUEEN, THAT IS WHAT IS FORGOTTEN I
THINK IN THIS CONVERSATION.
IT'S THOSE WEIRD MOMENTS LIKE AT THE OLYMPICS WHEN THEY
REALIZED IN THE NORTH KOREAN CHEERING DELEGATION THAT THE
CAMERA WAS ON THEM, THEY WENT FROM LIKE THIS TO DOING THEIR
CHOREOGRAPHED --
THAT'S PROBABLY ALL CHEERLEADERS THOUGH.
BUT LOOK,
I'M TRYING TO BE REALISTIC, OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T JUST SKETCH
OUT YOUR FANTASY FOR WHAT IS WANT TO HAPPEN AND EXPECT TO
HAPPEN, HE'S NOT GO TO STEP DOWN, HE'S NOT GOING TO DIE
TOMORROW, AND I DO THINK HE DESPERATELY WANTS TO BE A WAR
LEADER THAT GETS TO -- HE IS BASICALLY TRUMP, HE WANTS TO GO
TO PARTIES AND HAVE PEOPLE TALK NICE ABOUT HIM.
OBVIOUSLY THERE
WILL HAVE TO BE ACCESS TO NORTH KOREA IF WE ARE TO BELIEVE
ANYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT DENUCLEARIZATION, NOW THEY
WOULD NEVER ALLOW THAT SO THAT WOULD BE A BIG STEP.
BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES
AREN'T HAPPENING ANYMORE.
HE MIGHT WELL HAVE TO BE THE LEADER BUT HE CAN'T RULE IN
THE WAY HE HAS.
BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT HAS TO BE A PRIORITY, AND IT'S
BEING LEFT OUT IT SEEMS SO FAR.
WE ARE STILL IN THE EARLY STAGES.
THERE ARE A LOT OF POSITIVE OPTICS THAT COME OUT OF PEACE,
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF STRATEGIC THINGS THAT THESE MAJOR PLAYERS
DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP.
CHINA WANTS A GEOGRAPHICAL BUFFER
BETWEEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN BASIS IN SOUTH KOREA, CHINA
WANTS US TO GET RID OF OUR, WHAT DO WE HAVE, THREE MILITARY BASES
AT LEAST IN SOUTH KOREA?
WHICH GIVES US A STRATEGIC FOOTHOLD IN
THE EAST CHINA SEA.
OF COURSE CHINA ONCE US OUT, OF COURSE WE
DON'T WANT TO LEAVE.
WE WILL SEE HOW THESE NEGOTIATIONS GO, BUT
IN THE SAME WAY THAT IT'S PRETTY EASY TO DECLARE A SYMBOLIC
VICTORY, GRANTED NO ONE HAS DONE IT BEFORE BY GOING AND PLANTING
TREES, WE ARE STILL, AS YOU SAY, VERY FAR AWAY FROM SEEING PEACE
HERE.
FROM WHAT ACTUALLY MATTERS.
I THINK THE MOST PRACTICAL SHORT RANGE GOAL IS FOR CHINA TO
SAY, OKAY, HERE IS WHAT YOU DO.
YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF SEMBLANCE
OF CAPITALISM, BUT STILL HERE IS HOW TO MAINTAIN DICTATORIAL
CONTROL OVER YOUR PEOPLE BY DOING WHAT WE DO IN CHINA BUT
STILL BEING ABLE TO BE REPUTABLE THE WORLD OVER.
LIKE, THAT'S IT,
AND WE WILL GET CHINA HEAVY, CHINA HAS BECOME CHINA LITE, WE
WILL GET CHINA HEAVY, THAT'S THE PRACTICAL NEXT STEP AND THAT'S
ALL WE CAN LEAVE HOPE FOR AND WE WILL SEE HOW IT GOES.
IT'S
POSSIBLE TRUMP WILL GO BACK TO THE OTHER HAYLEY MILLS IN THIS
PARENT TRAP AND JUST BE LIKE, YOU KNOW, HE'S A ROCKET MAN.
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