hello America I'm Marc Levin this is life liberty and Levin we have a great
guest Gordon Chang how are you my friend fine and thank you so much Marc it's
great to see you Gordon Chang expert on China North Korea
really Asia generally you graduated from Cornell University in American history
then you graduated from Cornell Law School in 1976 I couldn't escape you
couldn't escape I'm sure you were surrounded by all kinds of cool liberals
but anyway yeah you're fairly ubiquitous on radio and TV too as an expert on
North Korea and China and frankly America in terms of our dealings with
these countries and obviously this has been teed up because the president at
least is supposedly in June on June 12th to be meeting with the the dictator of
North Korea Kim jong-un and yet this week there's been all kinds of ups and
downs and so forth and I want to get into that but I want the folks to
understand also something here I have here a document a document that goes
back to 1985 in all the discussions negotiations side deals actual deals big
time deals between the United States and North Korea the United States North
Korea and China the United States and five other countries in North Korea the
United States South Korea Japan and and North Korea or aimed at preventing North
Korea from getting news we've given them enormous amounts of money enormous
amounts of resources and they have nukes what happened I think that you know the
United States had other priorities and so what we did was we put North Korea
almost all the time at the bottom of the list and so of course the North Koreans
were able to just basically you know lie cheat and steal and we weren't paying
that much attention there were only certain moments that marked that we
really were concerned and that was for instance 1994 when we almost went to war
but you know during the administration of george w bush
you know they spent a lot of time on North Korea but for them the most
important thing was integrating China into the international system and so the
Bush administration put for instance China at the center of the six-party
talks and because of that you know we sort of got an arrogant Beijing because
we really sort of fed their notions of self-importance and we got a nuked up
North Korea so you know you get to the Obama era and basically it's in the too
hard basket they spend much more attention on Iran almost nothing on
North Korea and then the most amazing thing and this is credit to President
Obama he's basically an admission of mistake because during the transition
period they went to the Trump team and said look you're number one national
security priority is going to be North Korea and the Trump administration
actually took that seriously because when you look at at Trump's foreign
policy it's basically North Korea driven yeah of course they're interested in the
Middle East because they have to but for the rest of it
you know they subordinated their China policy to North Korea and that's the
reason why you get Kim jong-un at least saying he's gonna show up in Singapore
June 12th maybe it's July 12th maybe it's August
12th but I think it will happen what has Donald Trump done that's so
different from most of the recent presidents with respect to North Korea
really there are two things I think first of all you have the sanctions not
only US sanctions but also a concerted effort at the UN for Security Council
sanctions and the other thing of course is the president's comments that he was
going to strike North Korea he was not going to allow them to be able to strike
the American homeland and then of course you have John Bolton's national security
adviser Mike Pompeo you know this has actually unnerved the North Koreans and
also the South Koreans of the Chinese because there's a guy named Andre long
cough was some considered to be the world's number one expert on North Korea
he wrote a piece recently he said look the policies of these three countries
changed dramatically toward the end of last year and the only reason why that
happened was because they were afraid of war he doesn't save the next line which
is they're afraid of war because of President Trump but that's the reason
why and because of that you had a much
bigger pathway to peace and essentially we had at least for a moment peace
looked like it was gonna break out in North Asia well that's because they were
concerned about what the US was going to do that for the first time in a very
long time mark you know the United States was going to protect the American
homeland whatever it took and the president put a very significant naval
presence off the Korean Peninsula hasn't he well he did that with three carrier
groups three Carrier Strike groups I mean that's you know an AV that's been
severely depleted yeah three carrier groups in one place is really important
of course there were the escorts and of course the nuclear subs then of course
you also had the b-52s the B ones the F twenty-twos and so this has really been
a deployment of military resources at certain times that I think the North
Koreans looked at that and especially the Chinese they looked at and said you
know we really got to take the United States seriously now let's take a look
at this from a wall places the Washington Post 1994 the 2000 to 1994
North Korea agrees to halt the construction of two reactors the United
States thinks could be used as part of a nuclear weapons program instead
according to the agreement an international consortium is supposed to
replace the plutonium reactors with two light-water reactors in the u.s. agrees
to supply half a million tons of heavy fuel oil every year during the
construction period besides the u.s. South Korea Japan
European agency form an organization test with implementing the Accord but
when George W Bush becomes president in 2001 the United States walks away from
the talks with North Korea over concerns it is running a clandestine program the
North ultimately confirms the program's existence in 2002 rejecting further
negotiations kicking out the inspectors doubling down on its efforts at a time
when the United States is preparing to invade Iraq 2005 in August 2003 the
United States decides to participate in new negotiations with North Korea the
six-party talks alongside China South Korea Russia and Japan two years
later in February 20 2005 North Korea suspends its involvement in the
negotiations citing us conditions and resistance after restart in summer 2005
it again takes only 13 days for the negotiations to derail 2006 despite
suspending its involvement in the talk several times that year North Korea
agrees to end its nuclear weapons program this is 12 years ago only about
half a year later in September 2005 but once again North Korea suspends its
participation in the talks of Ryu s sanctions soon thereafter in October
2006 it launches its first nuclear test o 7:08 in 2007 six-party talks resumed
North Korea later agrees to major concessions some steps are taken to
follow through on its promises but then North Korea rejects US verification
methods and violates its own promises causing the breakdown of negotiations
again 2009 to 2010 North Korea rejects u.s. and South Korean promises during
new talks tensions with South Korea escalate after it accuses the north of
having torpedo one of its Navy ships in 2010 dozens of South Koreans died in the
attack 2012 weeks after Kim reaches a deal with the United States to suspend
its nuclear weapons program North Korea launches a long-range rocket causing the
agreement to fall apart the following year North Korea also
canceled scheduled family reunifications and have South Korean and US joint
military drills 2015 North Korea rejects any future talks on suspending its
nuclear weapons program after almost being drawn in an open military conflict
North Korean South Korea engagement talks they quickly fall apart and then
in 2016 in July North Korea signals its willingness to negotiate but
subsequently launches a number of missile tests tensions further escalate
as we know in 2017 and now he's messing around again that is kim jong on is
messing around now as we lead up to this so-called deadline of July June 12th I
think it is talking about well now I'm concerned about the military exercises
and we don't like John Bolton and this sort of thing would make of all this
well I think that there's this has a similarity to it
there is a Kim family playbook they use it all the time Kim jong-un learned it
from his father his father learned it from his grandfather right now though
the sanctions are really starting to hurt Kim jong-un
you don't have money you can't launch missiles you can't detonate nukes and
you can't engage in give politics which is basically a Kim ruler giving luxury
items Mercedes and Rolexes the senior regime elements to buy loyalty we're
starting to see evidence that North Korea is really hurting so for instance
you know that soldier who defected on November 13th across the military
demarcation line you know CNN had that story which was really gross about how
the guy had 11-inch parasites been in something well that's because they have
human excrement as fertilizer we've known that for a long time what was
really significant though was the soldier had uncooked kernels of corn and
his digestive tract which meant that he was scrounging for food the reason why
this is important mark is because those soldiers who are assigned to the joint
security area in the Demilitarized Zone that is like one of the most sensitive
posts this guy had to be well-connected probably a family in Pyongyang and so
the regime had every reason in the world to keep this guy well-fed they couldn't
do it you know we're starting to see also that rations in North Korea arms
even for elite officials are starting to be reduced there's a whole sorts of
things the Chinese are saying that office number 39 which is the Kim family
slush fund is running low of cash you know the list goes on and on and and
that's because the administration has tightened sanctions and has really done
a pretty good job of this there's more that they can do but what they've been
trying to do is get the Kim's to the bargaining table now they've been sort
of successful in doing that and we'll have to see that's what I think is
different and that is that this president actually has put North Korea
at the top of the list that's not to say that he's going to be successful but
that's a precondition to success and we haven't had that in a very long time
because as you read through that list I could think of all the things that
American administrations were doing that word didn't relate to North Korea North
Korea was sort of off to the side for almost all that
with maybe one exception 1994 for a month when we looked like we were going
to war but apart from that you know North Korea is all this is you know
there's this destitute little country can't do things can we collapse North
Korea economically if we tighten it more but the Chinese and Russians eventually
come to their rescue with economic aid the Chinese right now are coming to
North Korea's rescue if you look at Chinese sanctions enforcement over the
last two years it's improved you look over the last two months
it's markedly deteriorated and just to give you one example kim jeong-hoon
went to beijing at the end of march china allows north korean media to
photograph all the gifts at sea Jinping the Chinese ruler gave to Kim three
hundred and ninety four thousand dollars worth of porcelain jewelry silk that by
the way mark is a UN Security Council violation and what C Jinping was doing
was he was saying look I'm gonna put I'm violating UN sanctions better yet I'm
actually gonna photograph it so you have evidence that I'm violating UN sanctions
so you know Trump is sort of let that go and if indeed we come to a good deal
with the North Koreans that they honor we can sort of let that go and not worry
about what the Chinese have done if things fall apart like they could very
well then we've got to go after the Chinese though the answer to your
question and sorry for taking such a long time but the answer to your
question is yes we can collapse North Korea they got an economy twenty eight
point five billion dollars in 2016 the last year for which we have numbers we
can actually basically closed off all commerce to North Korea and even more
important we can go after the Chinese when you get to that in a minute
my question on North Korea is this we removed about a hundred nuclear warheads
from South Korea the deal was under George HW Bush
now we've denuclearized the peninsula as just goodwill to show and now you don't
need nukes so now the only country they would nukes is North Korea and South
Korea is none shouldn't we make an effort if necessary to reintroduce the
nuclear warheads that were removed in the South Korea if necessary that very
well may be necessary sometime down the road I don't
think that we have to do it now we have 28,500 service personnel and peninsula
we put tactical nukes back on the peninsula we've got to take a fair
number of those men and women and actually guard weapons because in a
wartime scenario you don't want the North Koreans to be capturing them so
that would sort of degrade military readiness the most important thing mark
of course is that we disarmed North Korea we do that we're okay and if we
don't if we don't we're gonna have to do something and that something might even
be worse than putting nukes like on Japan you read my mind you're saying I
agree encouraging Japan and other countries in that area to step up the
United States has this crazy policy what it does is we've allowed our enemies to
get the most destructive weapons on earth and we tell our friends they can't
defend themselves this is absolutely nuts so if we have
that policy mark we've got to be effective in making sure the rogue
regimes North Korea Iran and a few others don't get nukes and if we can't
do that then we have to think our pro non-proliferation policies because if we
don't do that we know where we're going to end up we're going to end up with the
bad guys being armed and we being disarmed
you
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